This started as a private e-mail correspondence. It has not been edited or spell-checked. The discussion is not yet finished.
Flush left, green comments are by me, indented, purple comments are by Muse.
I think much of the difference is our outlooks is generational. Muse saw Israel win the 1967 war and is a Zionist. I grew up seeing Israel defeated tie after time (1973, Lebanon, Intifada #1, Intifada #2). I never saw the State of Israel as anything but a doddering old man, incapable of protecting its citizens. She saw the Likud come to power, the emergence of a body of hesder students in the army and religious men moving into the ranks of politics. I saw two political parties, one of which hated us and talked about that a lot, and the other which hated us and took our homes away, in Yamit and this summer. I saw hesder students marginalized in the army and "leaders of the religious right" trade their electorate in for a little more power and perqs.
Muse grew up in a time of idealism. I grew up in a time of practical cynicism.
Muse still thinks there's something that can be salvaged of the wreck that is the State of Israel. I don't.
Are you saying the way your shul behaves is a good thing or a bad thing? In my shul weekly pulpit speeches rail against serving in National Service and are beginning to advocate not serving in the army, either.
Actually I agree with what's happening in the shul.
I am against the trend not to serve in the army. It was one of the aims of Disengagement to disengage us from the state. We're all suffering because the chariedim kept out of the army and many national affairs. We all have to be strongly involved and not let the anti-religious, anti-Eretz Yisrael continue to run the country. This was a battle, and we have to fight harder to win the war.
Do you really think the Charedi back the dati leumi except as allies
in their battle against the chiloni?
No, I think that they should see themselves as part of Am Yisrael, instead of as a superior waiting on the side.
And being part of Am Yisrael means fighting in the Israeli army?
Yes , becuase to boycott it means to only have others there making decisions and risking their lives.
We've been here since 1970, during the Yom Kippur War, when my husband worked pr in Shaare Tzedek, they had to take turns being there Shabbat and chag. The rav of the hospital poskened that only religious workers could work then, because they would be doing it "shem shamayim." And they had to dress expesially nice. Someone donated ties for the men, at a time when ties were never seen.
> Yes , becuase to boycott it means to only have others there making decisions
> and risking their lives.
Maybe the risk is there because those who hold the State holy allow it
to do suicidal things, stepping back from the brink of true protest
because "we can't break with the State--the State is the people"?
How can the Israeli government/army/institutions be Am Yisrael when
most of Am Yisrael doesn't even live in Israel?
By the same token, many blame America for forcing Israel's hand. How
can we, particularly we who are American citizens, sit back and let
others have to work to influence American policy while we soak up the
spiritual benefits of living here? Maybe we should move back to NY and
try to influence the American givernment from the inside?
We have to keep pushing into the system. That's what's behind #143, that they are trying to disengage us, and we must hold fast, because they don't have the numbers of kids we do, and they're scared and fighting dirty.
Who are we going to push in? What are we going to end up with? A
Mafdal MK as PM? What will that help? How many decades did "we" have
control of the educational system, and what did "we" do with it?
What party do you feel you could vote for if the elections were to be
held in a few months?
I was never for mafdal..
We push ourselves, and it has been happening, when so many army officers are religious or their parents are. Other professions where you rarely saw relgious people are filling, and we can't give up now. The burden was always on us, since chareidim just took the money for their silence..
Can we turn this discussion into a post that we'd crosspost? I'm sure that others are asking the same things. I've been writing about the issue a lot.
> I was never for mafdal..
Then who for? Not Leiberman, I don't think.
And even off the national level -- Moetzet Yesha? That's no model for
our young people. I can't think of a yishuv which is run totally
honestly, either. Where are the kids to learn the ideal way to run
things? Are there any role models out there at all?
Or is it the system, the "magiah li" mentality, the problem, and not
the number of bare heads? Might it not be so rotten that it has to be
torn down and built anew rather than shored up with our help?
> We push ourselves, and it has been happening, when so many army officers are
> religious or their parents are.
And did that help us any? We've been pushing since 48, very strongly
since the 70s. It got us Yamit, it got us Gush Katif, it got us North
Shomron, and it's getting us the wall. Why shouuld I allow my son to
go off and defend the people on the other side of the wall, the ones
who are leaving me vulnerable so they can feel (feel, I said, not be)
> since chareidim just took the money for their silence.
And meanwhile they get the money and the perqs. We get stepped on and die for our troubles. Maybe they had the right idea all along. In a
world of "magia li," take what you can and always ask for more.
> Can we turn this discussion into a post that we'd crosspost?
I'm not sure how, but it would be fine with me. I'm always looking for
There wasn't any pushing until the mid 1970's. Mamlachti dati used to be a mafdal "pie," and Cherut the Begin componant of Likud, pre-Likud, had nothing.
I'm for Arye Eldad. I used to vote "Begin" then Techiya and since then Moledet, especially now I'm for Arye.
We have more power than you think.
I don't respect Moetzet Yesha.
> There wasn't any pushing until the mid 1970's. Mamlachti dati used to be a
> mafdal "pie,"
As you say. Do you think that if "we" get the power of pie again we'd
use it any better than mafdal did? We do have religious hot shots in
the army--the head of AKA for one--is it making any dent?
Obviously it's hurting them; that's why they've been trhreatening the hesder yeshivot. They won't have any koach adam without us. Each year we're stronger.
But stronger at what? Playing their game their way? Is that what we want to do?
The system is rotten at the core. Replacing Sharon and Bibi with
Bentzi and Wallerstein won't get us anywhere.
By the time "our people" work their way up the ladder of the system,
they'll be as thoroughly co-opted as today's "pet religious." Fie on
that. I have more choices than Sharon or Peres -- I can choose to work
to topple the whole house of cards.
Bentzi and Pinchas, yuch and double yuch.
Remember, the "powers" were hurting; that's why they disengaged. You can't imagine how much.
> what is it you want the kids to engage with? Business as usual?
learning, working and settling etc
never give up
> learning, working and settling etc
> never give up
But you also want them to make their future in *their* institutions--the army, politics, etc.
So what happens to all the education we give them, when they get the conflicting message of "Torah" and "obedience to government" all their lives? How do you expect these kids to play the game by *their* rules and survive long enough with *our* values intact?
Not easy, but Judaism is the integration of all aspects of life.
> Not easy, but Judaism is the integration of all aspects of life.
Judaism is against the hilul HaShem which is the inevitable result of
working with corruption, and Israeli institutions are riddleed with
corruption. In Judaism, when a house is infected enough, the only
solution is to destroy it.
You're saying that we can save the situation by putting our good nails
int a rotten wooden house. I say fie on that--let's build our own
And you still haven't said--can you name one person--just one--from
"our camp" who'se made it into public recognition through "their"
system and who hasn't been co-opted? Can you name one yishuv that
isn't riddled with corruption problems, for example? (I know the
situation on our yishuv. I've heard residents talk about yours, too,
but there may be another side to that story. And look at Karnei
Maybe I"m crazy, but I just try to look foward. this summer I kept thinking of Nachshon and Avraham and Yitzchak and their perfect faith. It's said that the water came up to Nachshon's nose, and Avraham was less than a fraction of a second from sacrificing Yitzchak. We can't look around and get bogged down in the corruption and filth.
When I see Tzachi Hanegbi on TV I want to cry, because I love Geula Cohen, trust and respect her. To think that her son has become such a disapointment. There's "nothing" in his eyes.
I do trust Arye Eldad; he's a credit to his parents. And I think that a "mesorati" leader suits us. He's not a politician; he's a world reknown plastic surgeon, and he was head of the medical department in the army, despite his politics.
I read the Uzi Landau 18 points, and there are some red lights, like his support of a referendum. He's not a leader; he's being run by a "committee."
I just keep doing my thing and saying what I think and feel, and I'm amazed every time someone tells me that I've put in words exactly what he/she believes. That gives me strength, and that's why I write and send things out without making a bloody cent on it.
> Maybe I"m crazy, but I just try to look foward. this summer I kept thinking
> of Nachshon and Avraham and Yitzchak and their perfect faith. It's said
> that the water came up to Nachshon's nose, and Avraham was less than a
> fraction of a second from sacrificing Yitzchak. We can't look around and
> get bogged down in the corruption and filth.
Exactly--Nachshon broke the paradigm. Moshe did, too. He was in a
position to "work his way up the system" and didn't. He broke the
cycle of slavery from the outside, nearly ruining Egypt in the process
(according to our tradition). Maybe Israel should have tried to get
more babies adopted into the royal household instead of the
destruction of the 10 plagues?
And Avraham--he's worked outside the paradigm his whole life, and then
G-d tells him to go back into it, to perform a child (man) sacrifice.
And if G-d hadn't told him to go back out of the paradigm and leave
Yitzchak alone, where would we be now?
Jews don't generally play inside the box--especially a box taken from
the non-Jewish world, which is the box you want our kids to try to
take over and I'd like to see our kids replace with something more
> When I see Tzachi Hanegbi on TV I want to cry, because I love Geula Cohen,
> trust and respect her.
I wonder if she thought, as she saw her son take his first steps in
politics, that he was the first of a generation of "our camp" who
would eventually take over the country? See what I'm afraid will
happen to our kids?
> I do trust Arye Eldad; he's a credit to his parents. And I think that a
> "mesorati" leader suits us. He's not a politician; he's a world reknown
> plastic surgeon, and he was head of the medical department in the army,
> despite his politics.
He's coming from outside the system. Again--any "rose in the ranks"
who are worth the electrons to discuss them? I'd bet not--by the time
they get any prominence they've been thoroughly corrupted.
Tzachi was raised in Tel Aviv and Arye in Jerusalem and both in different family situations.
Tzachi was not the first, the first were Olmert, the Meridors, the Netanyahu brothers etc.
The older generation, post independence, took the discrimination against them (for being Lechi, Etzel, Revisionist etc) as normal and didn't fight it. So they suffered and their kids like Tzachi and Olmert were raised thinking that you have to bend laws to be successful; that's what the elite do.
The Mafdal crowd were "Uncle Toms." Yosef Burg was king and look at his son and the Herzogs even worse. I see them as the same mentatlity.
The younger generation, those born and raised after the 6 Days War are different. They're a higher madrega, level. How many more stages do we have to pass? I have no idea, but I'm in awe of these kids.
G-d willing, we won't have to wait much longer, but thinking back to the Bible. Things went very slowly then, too, slower than now. Shiloh was the capital of the Jewish Nation for 369 years before David made Jerusalem the capital.
> The younger generation, those born and raised after the 6 Days War are
> different. They're a higher madrega, level. How many more stages do we
> have to pass? I have no idea, but I'm in awe of these kids.
You're talking my age, maybe two or three years younger than me. I look around at my contemporaries and I see few Nachshons. The few that are there are getting their...nether regions trampled by our own "religious leaders" (who are not far off from the 'younger generation' -- maybe in their mid-40s?).
If you're looking for true leadership, look to the under-20 set. But again--how to keep them pure?
And, frankly, I think you're attributing too much idealism to some of the kids. Do you really think most of those thrown out of Gush Katif will rally to the defense of Gav HaHar or Drom Har Chevron? If yes--where are they now for North Shomron? Netzarim is already fundraising for itself. The Katif job site doesn't even mention the 4 non-Gush losses. Do you recall an "I heart N. Shomron" bracelet earlier this summer? Nope, neither do I.
It isn't right that Northern Shomron has been ignored. Strategically it's so important. Davka that's where Arye and his wife made their home this summer.
Of course not all the post-67 generation are idealists. And many won't go back to this sort of protest.
Democracy, majority rule has always been a danger with us. Moshe and later Shmuel had to fight to rule. And that's besides the classic example of the spies.
There are some unbelieveable psukim in the TaNaCh, where Shmuel complains to G-d that the people aren't listening etc, and G-d replies that He knows, since He has the same problem.
> It isn't right that Northern Shomron has been ignored.
But it makes perfect sense. My son is in school with several kids from Gush Katif, and what they say about their "leaders"--it doesn't surprise me that GK was targeted first or that it got all the attention. What does surprise me is how much communities in Shomron and Binyamin are cooperating in hushing-up the expulsion of N. Shomron--my daughter's off for 2 days to plant in GK hothouses, but there's never been a volunteer day for NS communities, though some of their teachers were from there!
I may be getting into Barry Chamish territory, but I don't think the primary targeted area was random at all. They knew who would get the media attention yet go quietly.
But back to the main topic. I spent a lot of time talking to my son this Shabbat. He's due to go into the army in the summer. He sees the army as his enemy. How can he be expected to follow orders when he considers the army as the corrupt enforcement arm of Sharon's plans? Most of the boys his age who are already are in the army, he says from conversations with them, are in it only for the shooting (occasionally) and access to the "mizron plugati" (most of the time). Why on earth should I encourage him to swim in a cesspool? In the hopes he can clean it out before he gets covered in muck? What are the chances of that happening when it hasn't happened over the last 30 years?
True there wasn't equal focus to the two areas of Disengagement. Northern Shomron was never a "moetzet Yesha stronghold." I guess that's why Arye Eldad ended up moving there. At some point in the near, pre-election future, I must have a good talk with him. I'm on the anglo moledet yahoo list, and it's not serious. I'll drop from digest to special notices. I don't know what party influence it has, but I'm disappointed. The powers ignore me. Ok, it would help if I wrote in Hebrew, but maybe I'm safer this way.
From what I was able to hear on Shabbat from Rav Elchanan Bin Nun's drasha in my shul, the state and army should still be supported. Rav Elchanan is Rosh Yeshiva of Beit Orot, near Har HaZaitim. Maybe your son should speak to him, and you, too.
> True there wasn't equal focus to the two areas of Disengagement. Northern
> Shomron was never a "moetzet Yesha stronghold."
And GK was?
> From what I was able to hear on Shabbat from Rav Elchanan Bin Nun's drasha
> in my shul, the state and army should still be supported.
Why? Could you give me a short summary of his reasoning?
GK had mafdal and MY people. Northern Shomron had none of that.
Sorry, I only heard snippets from Rav Elchanan. He generally bases on Rav Kook. I'll have to ask around.
> Sorry, I only heard snippets from Rav Elchanan. He generally bases on Rav
Ah, well, then, it wouldn't be of much help to my family. Our philosophy is Talmidei HaGRA, and you'll find that most of the Old Yishuv people had serious disagreements with R' Kook, though they might have shared a Shabbat chulent with him.